harry potter and the deathly hallows: a commentary

July 30th, 2007

i know i’m late to the game, previous responsibilities held me back (the lengths i’ve had to go through to not have anything spoiled!), but i am finally able to read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, the seventh and final book of the saga regarding “the boy who lived.” to celebrate this momentous occasion, i thought i would do a sort of running commentary, chapter by chapter, not only because of the story’s coming to a close, but also because it will help me piece things together from the previous six books. so i’ll read a chapter and then give my thoughts on it. that’s how this will work.

unlike most Potter fans, i don’t have an extensive list of predictions. i only have two main ones. snape is good and harry will die. i won’t fully develop my theory regarding harry’s death here (if you’re interested, a partially developed version is in the comments of this post at kari’s blog). all along i’ve thought that the book would end with harry’s death, but i’ve softened on that a little lately. i still think harry will die, but i’m not sure that the book will end with him dead as there could be some sort of resurrection after the final battle. but we shall see.

so, the commentary will commence after the jump (obviously, if you’ve not yet read the book and don’t want anything to be spoiled then proceed no further as there will be copious spoilers).

Chapter 1: The Dark Lord’s Ascending - i sat looking at the book for a while. then, when i finally opened it, i had a huge intake of breath. i think it just hit me that this is it. there’s no more books after this. all will soon become clear. there is no turning back. wow, the quotes before the chapter are quite ominous (CRACK!; rather fitting that i begin this chapter while one of the fiercest thunderstorms i’ve experienced is going on outside). ok, so Lucius somehow escaped from Azkaban, Snape is still ambiguous, Voldemort has discovered that he is the one that must kill Harry (duh!), and Nagini is about to feast on a professor i don’t even remember. death count: 1 (Charity Burbage). oh ya: yay for Lupin and Tonks!

Chapter 2: In Memoriam - number four, Privet Drive for perhaps the last time? sad! so Harry’s still broken up about Dumbledore and again realizes that there was so much he never got to ask his greatest mentor. also, that Rita Skeeter woman. man. talk about yellow journalism. although i wouldn’t be surprised out that there is some truth amidst the pack of lies.

Chapter 3: The Dursleys Departing - ah, the Dursleys. i will not be sad to see them go. but who would have known that Dudley was so….emotional? that was really kind of sweet. so the Order’s plans to move Harry have been changed. there’s obviously some connection to what was discussed in chapter 1. it will be interesting to see whose source, Snape’s or Yaxley’s, if either, is correct.

Chapter 4: The Seven Potters - whoa. INTENSE chapter. started out rather amusing, ended grimly. brilliant writing. so apparently Snape’s information was accurate and the Death Eaters knew of the Order’s plans. very interesting. another indication that there’s been a breakout from Azkaban. at least i think so. isn’t Stanley Shunpike supposed to be there? not looking that great as far as Snape’s goodness goes, but i’m sticking to that prediction. lots of questions come up in this chapter. poor Hedwig! death count: 2 (Hedwig; possibly 3 depending on what happened to Hagrid; and i guess i should say that i’m counting “good side” deaths).

Chapter 5: Fallen Warrior - Hagrid’s alive! phew! the Azkaban breakout is confirmed. and i knew it was because of Harry’s use of Expelliarmus that tipped Stanley off. i roll my eyes every time Harry uses that spell and i think it’s amusing that the Death Eaters consider that to be a trademark of Harry’s. although it’s interesting, and, i believe, quite significant, that Lupin is telling that he must grow up in his magic at the time that Harry is “coming of age.” i’m very curious to find out what the golden flames spell is. i love that Fred and George still cut up even though one has been seriously injured and they’re all in mortal peril. Mad-Eye will be greatly missed. next to Dumbledore, he was my favorite confirmed “good guy” (Snape, overall, is my favorite character in the book, largely because he is so brilliantly written). death count: 4 (Mad-Eye Moody, Ollivander).

Chapter 6: The Ghoul in Pajamas - one of the things i love most about these books is the casual conversations between Harry, Hermione, and Ron, especially as the idiosyncrasies of each comes out. this chapter was a welcome reprieve from the gravity of the previous two chapters, and an informative one as well. horcruxes can only be destroyed by injuring them beyond magical repair. horcruxes form emotional attachments with those they “flit in and out of.” if harry’s scar is indeed a horcrux, it will be very interesting to see how this works.

Chapter 7: The Will of Albus Dumbledore - Harry’s birthday. again, a hallmark of the books that will be missed. Harry’s 17 now, can use magic outside of school, and is “of age.” why did Lupin and Tonks scurry away at the mention of the arrival of the Minister? what is the significance of the three gifts, especially the inscription “i open at the close”? how will they get the sword? is the sword a horcrux, or does it have power to destroy beyond magical repair?

Chapter 8: The Wedding - hmm. Dumbledore is proving to be quite an intriguing character. i wonder what the truth about his past is. it would make sense that he had dabbled in the dark arts when he was younger as this would make his choice to pursue good very significant. patronuses (patroni?) are much more interesting in this book. not just a defense against dementors! wow! the ministry has fallen and the minister is dead. death count: 5 (Scrimgeour)

Chapter 9: A Place to Hide - another attack, another narrow escape. i wonder how the Death Eaters found them. Mr. Weasley’s Patronus, too.

Chapter 10: Kreacher’s Tale - so R.A.B. is confirmed as Regulus Black. was there ever any doubt? and Kreacher went with Voldemort to plant the locket horcrux and with Regulus to betray the Dark Lord by switching it. what a valiant act on Regulus’s part! makes me wonder what Sirius and the rest of the Black family would have thought had they known the truth about Regulus’s disappearance. i must say that i’m very wary about Mundungus. i do not have a good feeling about him at all. but then, i guess i’m not supposed to. “i open at the close” must refer to the locket. it opens backwards? at the hinge? would the fake locket be considered a piece of clothing? wouldn’t this free Kreacher from service to Harry?

Chapter 11: The Bribe - Lupin has gone a bit nutters, hasn’t he? very peculiar. for a while i thought it wasn’t really him, and i’m not entirely sure that it was. very strange. so Umbridge has the locket. great. i thought there was a chance we might have been done with her. oh ya. yay Kreacher! “Perhaps just one more, Master Harry, for luck?” hahaha!

Chapter 12: Magic is Might - lots of Death Eaters at number twelve, Grimmauld Place. i wonder if they know Harry is there. Snape headmaster?? wow! didn’t see that one coming, although i immediately thought of the Phineas Nigellus portrait and audibly said, “uh oh” after reading that headline. sad that there probably won’t be another trip on the Hogwarts Express. no more candy carts, no more shenanigans between Harry and Malfoy. i’m sure they will, but i wonder if Harry, Ron, and Hermione will get back to Hogwarts before the end. so Harry is posing as a Death Eater, unsuspectingly, and the three of them may have cost poor Reg Cattermole his wife. i have to say that this chapter made me REALLY nervous. so much tension and i have a very strong feeling they’re going to be found out.

Chapter 13: The Muggle-Born Registration Commission - GAH! i KNEW they would be found out. ugh. and i still hate Umbridge. i hate everything about that woman. pretty stupid of Harry to remove that eye from Umbridge’s office door. even stupider for him to stun her and Laxley, beginning everything that followed. but at least he hasn’t used Expelliarmus for a few chapters now.

Chapter 14: The Thief - opening the locket? unsuccessful. another mystery introduced: the blond-headed thief.

Chapter 15: The Goblin’s Revenge - (first, i must say that the picture at the beginning of the chapter reminded me of the “Roast Mutton” chapter from The Hobbit; for a second i thought Harry, Ron, and Hermione were going to become the main ingredients of a Goblin stew) so from the conversation of the exiles there are lots of wizards and witches who would like to believe that Harry is “the chosen one.” so there’s basically a ready-made army waiting for Harry to declare war or something. interesting. also interesting that the goblins are not getting involved. i wonder if there are other creatures who have similar feelings. i wonder if the centaurs or the giants are going to, at some point, join the war or leave it alone as it’s “a wizards’ war.” and now another rabbit trail. the real sword of Gryffindor. where is it? can it really destroy anything? and, of course, i’m deeply troubled that Ron has decided to bail. oi.

Chapter 16: Godric’s Hollow - wow, what a touching chapter. Harry finally makes it to his parent’s graves and the town in which they died sixteen years ago. i think it’s rather fitting that they were there on Christmas Eve, although i do miss Christmas at Hogwarts. so who is Ignotus, and what is the symbol? there’s got to be something, another horcrux or the sword, in Godric’s Hollow. the inscriptions on the graves of Dumbledore’s relatives and Harry’s parents are obviously significant. both biblical quotes, the last having much resurrection significance. hmm….

Chapter 17: Bathilda’s Secret - phew! another intense chapter. so the Potter’s house still stands (mostly) and Bathilda is dead. Nagini possessing her was wicked strange! no sword, no horcrux, and a lost photograph that would have served as a big clue (i’m thinking the blond thief is Grindelwald? there seems to be too many connections to him in Godric’s Hollow, and too many clues pointing to him having some big part to play). we get the fullest account yet of what went on the night Harry’s parents were killed, and this from the perspective of Voldemort. and now, Harry’s wand is kaput. hard to be a wizard with no wand. death count: 5 (Bathilda Bagshot; stays at this number because there is a second reference to the fact that Ollivander might not be dead, but just taken hostage; i thought it was the Avada Kedavra curse used on him, but looking back it appears it could have just been the Cruciatus curse).

Chapter 18: The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore - AH! the blond thief IS Grindelwald! so he and Dumbledore were close for a while. it may be just me, but i didn’t take Dumbledore’s letter to be as bad as the characters in the book did. i may have to read it again, but it seemed to me to fit with the Dumbledore we know from the previous six books, just a skewed and twisted version that Rita Skeeter has concocted, and one stained by the later abuse of the “FOR THE GREATER GOOD” slogan. i think Dumbledore was just being diplomatic in his letter, hoping for more dialogue. Dumbledore was always the teacher. yes, wizards had great power, yes they could protect muggles with that power, but they must use their power for good, not evil. i think that’s what he meant. i guess it all hinges on what he meant by “rule,” which i don’t necessarily think means oppression. maybe i just have too much faith in Dumbledore.

Chapter 19: The Silver Doe - so they just “happen” to apparate to a forest where the Gryffindor sword is at the bottom of a pond. i guess the implication is that somehow Dumbledore knew they’d get there eventually and so hid the sword. seems a little too coincidental to me, though. so now they have the sword, the horcrux is destroyed, Ron is back, and Harry has a replacement wand. where did Ron stay when he was gone so long? back at the Burrow? is he going to catch them all up as to what’s going on with the war? so the message on the snitch didn’t have anything to do with the locket. what does “i open at the close” mean then? i guess it refers to how the snitch opens? so it opens at the close of what? the war? a life?

Chapter 20: Xenophilius Lovegood - not much to say about this chapter. Luna’s father is every bit, perhaps moreso, as peculiar as she is, and apparently rather gullible too. that horn thing will definitely blow up at some point. and now we’ve been introduced to the Deathly Hallows.

Chapter 21: The Tale of the Three Brothers - disappointed in Mr. Lovegood, but i guess it’s understandable. he lost his wife, and now might lose his daughter and will do anything to get her back. ok, so they have one of the Deathly Hallows, the cloak. an unbeatable wand? obviously what Voldemort has been looking for in his interrogations of the wand makers. appears that Grindelwald might have been the last known person to have it. a resurrection stone?? might come in handy if Harry dies. hmm……

Chapter 22: The Deathly Hallows - Hermione’s doubt is really getting on my nerves. always the one to follow “reason,” never wanting to believe in things bigger than her control. so it’s possible that they now have two of the Deathly Hallows, with the ring being in the snitch. they need to get that thing open. i loved the radio show and hope that there’s more of that. more stupidity by Harry in saying the “Taboo” name. in the words of Ulysses Everett McGill, “damn! we’re in a tight spot!” death count: 8 (Ted Tonks, Dirk Cresswell, Gornuk the goblin).

Chapter 23: Malfoy Manor - so the Malfoys are pretty much powerless and probably being held at their place against their will. Draco seems to be wavering a little bit. could he turn for good? Wormtail failed to repay his life debt, a fitting end for him, i think. i was surprised how they got out of there. the mirror shard is very mysterious. can Dumbledore go between his portrait in the Headmaster’s office and the mirror? is that how he was able to tell Dobby to rescue Harry? poor Dobby. a valiant ending for a valiant elf. death count: 10 (Wormtail [once good], Dobby)

Chapter 24: The Wandmaker - whoa! ok. so there’s a horcrux in the Lestrange vault at Gringotts. better than that, Dumbledore had the Elder Wand all along!! ah!! so Voldemort is at Hogwarts and now has the wand. the third and final Deathly Hallows has been located. i guess this is setting up for the final showdown to occur at Hogwarts. that will allow Ginny and Neville to rejoin their fellow D.A. members and will set up the ultimate reveal of whether Dumbledore was justified in trusting Snape. but first, to Gringotts! and i must admit that Dobby’s funeral made me a little teary-eyed.

Chapter 25: Shell Cottage - another chapter with not much to say. yay for a wizard baby! very skeptical about this deal with Griphook.

Chapter 26: Gringotts - well OF COURSE they were going to be found out! never any doubt. pretty dramatic escape, though. i can’t wait to see that scene translated into film. so now they have the Hufflepuff goblet but have lost the sword. how are they going to destroy the horcrux? Harry definitely seems to be growing up in his spell casting, what with the use of Unforgivable Curses and all. “for the greater good!”

Chapter 27: The Final Hiding Place - a short chapter, but some interesting tidbits. so the last horcrux is, indeed, at Hogwarts and that’s where Voldemort will, fittingly, go last. his rage will be fully developed by then and more people will surely have died by then. i’m wondering who the victims were in his latest outrage. it seemed that Bellatrix and Lucius escaped, but who didn’t? also confirmed as a horcrux: Nagini.

Chapter 28: The Missing Mirror - whoa! all this time Dumbledore’s brother has been the barman at The Hog’s Head?? wow. and he’s the one with the blue eyes. also, apparently some of what Rita Skeeter published is true, though not entirely accurate. makes Dumbledore much more human and seems to put in perspective the rest of his life. he seems to have been rather ambitious yet bitter that he had to come back to take care of his family. Grindelwald gave him the outlet for his ambition, but that turned into a lust for power and ended in the death of his sister. riddled with grief and shame, he set himself to train young witches and wizards in order to instill chosen virtues in them, “for the greater good.” also to care for them as he had failed to care for his sister. this would also make sense as to why he never pursued the Minister of Magic position. Dumbledore is becoming more and more complex a character as this book progresses. perhaps even more complex than Snape. this portrait that Neville came out of is very intriguing.

Chapter 29: The Lost Diadem - Hogwarts! Neville! i’m so proud of Neville! so it appears that they know what they’re looking for, they just need to find it. unless, however, the diadem is not really a horcrux. but at this point in the book it’s got to be. so the D.A. is assembled and ready to fight. and it appears that Harry is finally starting to listen when his friends tell him that he doesn’t have to do everything by himself. i loved Ginny’s immediate insistence that Luna take Harry to the Ravenclaw wing rather than Cho. cornered again, and Voldemort is on his way. well…here we go….

Chapter 30: The Sacking of Severus Snape - phew! ok. the troops are mustering, Snape has fled, Voldemort is at the gate. Harry’s “we’re fighting” shortly followed by Percy’s reconciliation choked me up a bit. where are Ron and Hermione? getting in some long-awaited snogging before certain death? wait…a bathroom?? could the diadem be in the Chamber of Secrets??

Chapter 31: The Battle of Hogwarts - brilliant writing! so brilliant. so the horcrux wasn’t in the Chamber of Secrets, but basilisk fangs were! good show. both horcruxes destroyed. Crabbe, killed by his own spell, is dead and Harry saved Malfoy’s life. i’m really curious to see how Malfoy’s story ends out. also curious to see what part Grawp plays. on that same note, the giants have apparently joined the Death Eaters. likely, then, the centaurs will join the Order. where has Ginny gone? no doubt to fight with the other members of the D.A. and the Order. Harry: “is this the moment?” hahahaha. oh, and poor Fred. death count: 11 (Fred Weasley)

Chapter 32: The Elder Wand - hmm. giant spiders. that’s one thing i hope does NOT make it into the film. :heebiejeebies: lots of fighting, Hagrid might be dead, Voldemort believes he’s most powerful now, and Snape is dead. what’s happened with Nagini? is the starry cage just going to follow Voldemort as he goes to fight? what’s contained in the memory that Snape told Harry to take and bottle up? death count: 12 (Severus Snape [i still have hope!]).

Chapter 33: The Prince’s Tale - SNAPE IS GOOD!!! AHHH!!! i KNEW it!! wow. what a reveal! Snape was ruled by love! funny way of showing it, but all the same. i definitely teared up when he produced the doe patronus. aw man. so is Nagini a horcrux? the scar seems to be. so Voldemort unknowingly split his soul into seven parts. looks like Harry’s going to die, although he might not stay that way. there is still the stone in the snitch. death count: 14 (Remus Lupin, Nymphadora Tonks).

Chapter 34: The Forest Again - so Harry is going to meet his end. why couldn’t he have said something to Ginny? “the close” referred to the close of his life. he summoned his parents, Sirius, and Lupin with the stone and bravely marched to the heart of the Death Eaters. green light…Harry’s sacrifice is complete. death count: 15 (Colin Creevey; not sure about Harry).

Chapter 35: King’s Cross - so Harry’s…..half-dead (”i don’t want to go on the cart!”; or “train,” as the case may be). the true Dumbledore is revealed, and it was his ambition that served as the thorn in his side. very interesting. just as it is Voldemort’s ambition that leads him to have nothing to do with love or anything else that could get in the way (learning about elves, children’s tales), even though those things might help him achieve his end. blind obsession. although Dumbledore realized what he could become and got out while he good, though still tempted gravely. Dumbledore is a Romans 7 man. i’m not sure the explanation of Harry’s blood in Voldemort makes that much sense to me. i’ll probably have to read that section a couple more times.

Chapter 36: The Flaw in the Plan - so Harry came back from….wherever he was and pretended to be dead until the last battle broke out. way to go Neville!! although i wish it had been Neville that killed Bellatrix. to have Mrs. Weasley do it, though? what a scene! and what a mouth she has! FINALLY, the centaurs enter the fray. much later than they should have. and the house-elves! i love them! i really loved the image of Voldemort and Harry circling together. reminded me of a snake and a mongoose. come on, though. the final showdown, all is revealed, Voldemort is all but defeated, and Harry casts Expelliarmus??? is this Rowling having a laugh? that was pretty weak.

Epilogue: Nineteen Years Later - i pretty much hated the epilogue. it is WAY too Disneyish and way too “happily ever after” for a story like this. it felt to me like it wasn’t even part of the story. like they had entered some weird alternate Harry Potter universe or something where nothing since the end of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets had happened. i am not thrilled at all by the Epilogue, particularly because it wasn’t even that satisfying. there was no reference to the cost of everything. it’s like it didn’t even matter. a complete letdown after such brilliant writing and storytelling over the last few chapters. it didn’t even wrap everything up. what happened to Luna? who’s the new Minister? the new Headmaster? what happened to the Death Eaters? who is Teddy Tonks living with? the book would have been SO much better if it had simply ended with “i’ve had enough trouble for a lifetime.” SO MUCH BETTER. in fact, i might even tear out the epilogue, i hate it so much. Snape the bravest person Harry knew? i like that.

Final Thoughts
overall i think i’m pretty satisfied with this book, although it’s not my favorite in the series. that honor still belongs to both Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban and Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. the first half of the book was too much of an emotional rollercoaster for me, with extreme ups and extreme downs. the last half of the book, aside from The-Part-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named, i thought was very good. before i read the book, i had ideas about where the story was going and it turned out that i was mostly correct.

the one major disappointment i have is in Harry’s non-death death. it just wasn’t really that powerful of a scene, i don’t think, and i think that’s due to the fact that whatever sacrifice there was was one out of obligation. not love. nor was it that powerful of an outcome in the moments immediately following it. it seemed like the only purpose it served was to get Harry to a place where Dumbledore could explain everything as he always (book 6 excepted) does. it didn’t seem like much of a sacrifice to me. not anywhere near on par with the sacrifice of his mother, Dumbledore, or Snape. and i think, literarily, the character of Harry Potter will never gain status as a timeless literary hero because of that. i think whatever status he gains will be due to the pop-culture phenomenon that is the Harry Potter franchise, but he will never be a Frodo or an Aslan in literary terms.

but that’s ok, right? he’s not the true hero of the story is he? sure he was “The Boy Who Lived” and the one who ultimately defeated Voldemort (with Expelliarmus of all spells; still weak), but the story is much more about those around him than it is about Harry. Harry and his story served as a vehicle through which we came to learn of the true hero of the series. i think one of the constant themes throughout the book is that things are not always as they appear. certainly that was true of Dumbledore, the beloved Headmaster, who seemed as pristine as anything. but then, come to find out, Dumbledore was at least partly responsible for the death of his sister and struggled his whole life with ambition and the desire for power. deep caverns of mystery, intrigue, and failure lay behind the cheerful, wise, candy-loving facade.

and that turned out to be the case with the true hero of the books, Severus Snape. unlike his pupil, i believe Snape will go down as one of the greatest literary characters of this generation. i don’t know that i’ve ever read such a complex character as Snape, nor am i aware of one who made a greater sacrifice than the one Snape made. though he didn’t get the girl, Snape loved her enough to give his life over to the Dark Lord (in many more ways than death) in order to protect the son she had with, perhaps, Snape’s greatest enemy. whereas darkness lay behind the bright facade of Dumbledore, light and love lay behind the dark facade of the potions master. he had his faults, sure, and the gravity of what he was doing got the better of him at times. but at the heart of it was love and fidelity. truly, Snape was the bravest man in the books, and the true hero.



12 Comments »

  1. Kari says

    I strongly disagree that Snape is the hero of these books. JKR herself said she doesn’t see him as a hero on the Today show (though she said a little bit differently today in her chat). Here is what she said last Thursday:

    “Is he a hero? You see, I don’t see him really as a hero. He is spiteful. He’s a bully. All these things are true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But was he brave? Yes, immensely.”

    And that’s exactly how I feel. He was intentionally cruel even when he didn’t need to be, he took joy in it. JKR also said he wouldn’t have helped Harry if not for Lily. A real hero would have helped regardless.

    If anything, he’s an anti-hero, but I say that a happy ending suits the kind of story she is telling (and I was right about the kind of story she was telling) much more than an anti-hero.

    July 30th, 2007 | #

  2. Kari says

    PS. Harry is the hero because he rejected power/becoming the Master of Death in the form of the Hallows (something Voldemort and even Dumbledore couldn’t do and Snape definitely wouldn’t have done) in favor of the task set before him, sacrificing his life for others, thereby securing their safety. Thus making him the Master of Death.

    July 30th, 2007 | #

  3. cozart says

    hmm. i don’t know about “anti-hero,” although i could see how that could be an option. i think “postmodern hero” might work better. :wink:

    first off, i’m not denying that Harry’s a hero. i definitely think he is. so are Ron, Hermione, Neville, etc. i just think there are bigger, more complex heroes. that’s all.

    but…a real hero would have helped regardless? i think it’s pretty silly for JKR to say what she did. of course Snape wouldn’t have. and neither would Harry have helped had he not formed the relationships that he held so dear. Jesus, the “ultimate hero,” would not have done what he did had it not been for his relationship with the Father and Spirit from eternity past. you don’t really mean to say that Harry would have helped if he never had any of the relationships that he had formed with Ron, Hermione, Sirius, Lupin, etc, do you? if Dumbledore had just shown up one day, told him he was “the chosen one” and that he needed to go be killed by a dark wizard in order to save the wizarding world because of some vague connection he had with this particular wizard? i highly doubt that he would have said “right-o” and marched happily to his death because that’s what heroes do. heroes do not exist in vacuums. there is always motivation and there are always circumstances for them choosing to act as they do. it was true for Severus, and certainly true for Harry.

    that’s why Snape is such a great story and character. love for Lily, and i would say for Dumbledore also, overcame his hatred of James. yes he did cruel things, even heroes can falter. but some of those cruel things, as we learned, may also have been done in order to keep up appearances. Dumbledore was very adamant that Severus give absolutely no indication whatsoever that he was truly acting on behalf of the Headmaster. he may have gotten carried away at times, and should rightly be blamed for that, yet he did so out of fidelity to what Dumbledore had charged him with, and out of a greater love for Lily.

    Snape’s a Jack Bauer-esque type hero. if you can’t call Snape a hero then you definitely can’t call Jack Bauer a hero. Jack never plays by the rules, does some pretty under the table things, and hurts a lot of people, sometimes even good guys, in order to save the lives of countless others. sometimes to save the life of one. but it’s “for the greater good.”

    you’ll probably disagree, and that’s ok.

    in regard to Harry…i don’t think his “sacrifice” secured their safety. if it did then there’s a huge inconsistency with what was written about wandlore. i think the reason that Harry didn’t really die, the reason that the Crucio curse didn’t work on Harry, the reason that spells didn’t stick for Voldemort, was because the wand knew it was not with it’s rightful owner. before Voldemort attempted to kill Harry he already said that the wand did not work that well for him, and i’m not even sure (i’d have to go back and check) that we ever saw Voldemort try to do anything with the Elder Wand, beyond things like creating Nagini’s “cage” before Harry showed up in the woods.

    Harry couldn’t use the blackthorn wand for this same reason. he did not procure the wand in the correct way in order for the wand to become “his.” thus he couldn’t do anything really powerful with it. and neither could Voldemort with the Elder Wand.

    i think this goes back to what Dumbledore said about Voldemort’s ambition and blind obsession fixing his mind to get what he wants at all costs, not taking time to fully learn and understand what it is he’s seeking. this was true for house-elves, children’s tales, and, in this instance, wandlore. Voldemort didn’t understand the deep magic behind “the wand choosing the wizard”. if the Elder Wand was truly the most powerful wand that existed, then surely the magic behind that wand was the strongest there was according to wandlore. thus the wand wouldn’t work for Voldemort.

    another inconsistency is how, then, it destroyed the horcrux, and this was not sufficiently explained (i’m sure there could be something about a non-rightful owner turning the wand upon its proper owner, but again this was not sufficiently, if at all, explained). i just don’t see, based on the extreme lengths taken to explain wandlore in this book, how things were different after Harry’s “sacrifice”. the wand still didn’t work because Voldemort’s lust for power and dominance blinded him to really finding out why the wand did not work for him. he was not the rightful owner, Harry was. what did Harry’s “sacrifice” do besides get him to a sort of intermediate state where Dumbledore could explain everything? i know what’s written in the book and i know the official party line, i just think there’s a wild inconsistency between what was said and demonstrated about wandlore and what the “official” stances are. it just doesn’t make coherent sense unless you forget about what was said about wands.

    and i’m fine with happy endings. like i said, the ending would have been much better if the book had ended with “i’ve had enough trouble for a lifetime.” i think that’s a PERFECT ending to the book and series. and a happy one. the epilogue, in my opinion, was just awful.

    July 30th, 2007 | #

  4. Kari says

    What do you mean his sacrifice didn’t ensure their safety? Harry said that Voldemort couldn’t hurt anyone (silencing charm didn’t work, body-bind couldn’t hold Neville) because of his sacrifice. That seems clear enough to me.

    Additionally, Voldemort did NOT say the wand didn’t work for him. He said that he could do his ordinary (which is to say extremely extraordinary for a normal wizard) magic with the Elder Wand. So you are mistaken there. The Elder Wand DID work for him, but not in any special way.

    I think Harry really did die, so if you don’t believe that, it’s probably not worth continuing the discussion. But I think Harry did die and was able to return because of his mother’s blood. The wand worked on Harry because he wasn’t fighting back. He wasn’t dueling. He was willingly giving himself up, and that made all the difference. It killed Harry and also Harry-Horcrux . . . and since Harry died, Voldemort was also sent into limbo because he has Harry’s blood. He would have stayed in limbo until returning to his body (using the remaining Nagini-Horcrux) if Harry had chosen to go on. But Harry chose to return, finally understanding how best to defeat Voldemort.

    And because of the wands, Harry understood what even Dumbledore did not - killing was not the necessary part. In this case, it wasn’t even the most important part. What was important was the disarming (and that was, in this case, Draco’s doing).

    I think maybe you need to read it again.

    July 30th, 2007 | #

  5. cozart says

    ok, i guess i need to clarify. when i said that the wand did not work for Voldemort, i meant did not work in the way he wanted/expected it to. like i said, i know he could still do stuff, just not really powerful stuff. the same way Harry could do some stuff with the blackthorn wand, just not everything he could with his old wand. this changed when he got Draco’s wand because he was then the rightful owner of that wand. sorry if that wasn’t that clear. that’s my fault.

    magic is not the wand alone, but it is also the internal power of the wizard. Voldemort was probably the most powerful wizard alive, so he’s going to have a lot more internal power than, say, Harry or Ron. so “ordinary magic” is going to be at a higher level for him, but i just didn’t take “ordinary magic” to mean unforgivable curses and the like (at least not with the same potency as with a rightful wand), with the precedent being Harry and the blackthorn wand. again, how an unrightful wand limited a wizard was not something that was sufficiently explained. thus my charge of an inconsistency in the story and what was presented.

    sarah just said that her theory is that Harry’s sacrifice combined with the fact that the wand was used against its rightful owner further weakened the magic that the wand could do which further weakened Voldemort’s magic against those who Harry sacrificed himself for. that if Voldemort had tried to curse someone who Harry had not sacrificed himself for, then the wand would still be able to do “ordinary magic.” again, i know what Harry said. i just think that parts at the end are inconsistent.

    and i definitely think Harry died. that much is certain (again, my claims are inconsistency and lack of sufficient explanation, not a denial of what’s written). here’s a question. do you think it was the wand that killed the horcrux or harry’s sacrifice (both?)? if you’re correct, it has to be the sacrifice, right? normal wands cannot do damage beyond magical repair, so certainly the Elder Wand could not do so apart from its rightful owner, right? but a sacrifice of love could?

    and i definitely think you’re right about the disarming bit. at least that any spell would have worked the same way as long as it allowed Harry to take the wand from Voldemort. but of course Expelliarmus because of what Harry had discovered, seen, and…well…it was his trademark for a reason!

    July 30th, 2007 | #

  6. Kari says

    I still think you’re not quite right about Voldemort and the Elder Wand. Snape said, “The wand is working for you,” or whatever, and Voldemort said, “Yes, but I can only do my ordinary magic with it.” HIS ordinary magic. And his ordinary magic did Unforgivable Curses all the time. He compared it, in fact, to his regular phoenix feather wand. My impression is that it was pretty much exactly the same as his normal wand, but didn’t give the extra power/benefit he’d expected.

    I’m not sure Harry and the Blackthorn wand are exactly comparable since Voldemort is so much more powerful. Hermione had Bellatrix’s wand, and she said it didn’t feel right, but she was able to use it better than the blackthorn wand, presumably because she is more magically talented than Harry. Voldemort is much more powerful than Harry, so he was even more able to use the Elder Wand. It just wasn’t submitting to him as it would to its rightful owner. The wand lore in genereal makes sense to me, though, taking into account the person’s original talent and any special talent of the wand.

    I think the scene in the forest was more about the sacrifice than the wand, if that’s what you are asking. We don’t really know what it would mean to attach a horcrux to a living object . . . if Harry had lived to be 80 and died a natural death, would the horcrux have remained in his corpse after death? What would have happened if Nagini hadn’t been killed by Gryffindor’s sword? I don’t think we have enough information to say.

    I think Sarah’s theory makes sense, but I’ve been reading it that Harry’s sacrifice is what the “extraordinary magic that couldn’t be reversed” is that killed the horcrux. We were told repeatedly that the weapon Harry had is love, so when Voldemort tried to killed an unarmed, defenseless Harry and he chose willingly to die, the horcrux in him was defeated, also offering the same protection he’d grown up with on everyone in Hogwarts. The wand worked on him because he wasn’t fighting back. So, in the forest scene, what was working was love/blood. The protection in his own blood gave him the chance to come back. His protection ensured that the wand wouldn’t work on anyone he’d died to protect. And because of his conversation, he finally understood where Dumbledore had made his mistake regarding the wands, and he knew that if he fought back, he could win.

    July 31st, 2007 | #

  7. cozart says

    but Hermione says the wand doesn’t work properly for her! she says on p.519: “‘I hate this thing,’ she said in a low voice. ‘I really hate it. It feels all wrong, it doesn’t work properly for me….It’s like a bit of her.’”

    so, if you’re right, all that stuff about wandlore and right ownership and process is only applicable to wands with extraordinary capabilities? otherwise, any old wand will do? i just don’t buy that.

    that goes against everything that was written about wandlore, about “the wand choosing the wizard,” and, of course, the two examples that we have that HAD to be telling us something about the effects of improper wand ownership: Harry and the blackthorn and Hermione and Bellatrix’s wand.

    July 31st, 2007 | #

  8. Kari says

    I don’t think it worked as well as her own wand, but we also saw her cast spells with it better than Harry did with the blackthorn wand . . . she said that, but it seemed like it was a non-issue. She didn’t get a different wand after Gringotts, did she? And we saw her perform magic just fine, throughout the battle and in the end dueling with Bellatrix. It didn’t feel as good as her wand, but she was skilled enough that she could be at least competent with any wand, even one that she hadn’t won accurately.

    I didn’t say that was only the Elder Wand that dealt with these issues, otherwise any old wand would do. I said that I think Hermione had better luck with Bellatrix’s wand, even though she didn’t take it, than Harry did with the blackthorn wand, because she was more skilled than Harry to begin with. I do think the more skilled you are, the less the wand matters. I think Voldemort could have used pretty much any wand and had pretty much the same effect. Same for Dumbledore. Probably same for Snape or Grindelwald or any of the extra powerful wizards we know. A normal wizard, though, is going to have more trouble with a wand that isn’t his/her own.

    I think you are oversimplifying a whole lot. It makes sense to me, honestly. I don’t know what to tell you except that you probably need to read it again.

    July 31st, 2007 | #

  9. cozart says

    i just think it’s pretty inconsistent and that the ending suffers from that. and i don’t think that anything that was said about wands was a non-issue. although if it was, then that’s careless and of course there’s going to be inconsistencies. if it makes sense to you, then that’s fine. it just doesn’t mesh for me at all, and i have reread all the parts about wands.

    and i don’t think i’m oversimplifying. i’m just going on what’s written in the book. and trying to connect the parts to the whole given the importance and stress placed on wandlore, and given three examples of problems with wands.

    oh well. nothing’s perfect, i guess.

    July 31st, 2007 | #

  10. cozart says

    and, for the record, she’s apparently not consistent with herself! :lol: i just found this in a chat transcript:

    Lechicaneuronline: Do you think snape is a hero

    J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity – and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love

    J.K. Rowling: and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That’s pretty heroic!

    July 31st, 2007 | #

  11. Kari says

    I was not saying that it was a COMPLETE non-issue (again, oversimplification). I was saying that it became less of an issue because she was able to overcome it.

    I genuinely don’t think it’s inconsistent. I can’t see why you say that. I think it may not be consistent through all seven books in every occasion, yes, there may be slip-ups. But I think this book was extremely consistent as far as the wands were concerned. That’s why I say you need to read it again.

    -Anyone can use any wand to some extent. This varies according to your own ability. Harry got better at using the blackthorn wand with practice, though he would never have been able to use it like his own.

    -The best magic will come from your own wand or a wand you have gotten by disarming another person.

    I think that all the examples we saw line up with this information.

    Additionally, she did NOT say Snape was THE hero. Many people think he was A hero (I don’t, but many people do), and I won’t argue with that at this point, even if I personally disagree. But you said he was THE hero, which JKR would not agree with.

    July 31st, 2007 | #

  12. cozart says

    i know she would never say he is THE hero. i just think that he is. literary interpretations vary. in the same way that i think samwise is a bigger hero than frodo and THE hero of that arc in the story (maybe the book, but i haven’t thought that far through it). but in the conversation you referred to she said he is not a hero, in another she said he is. that’s all i was pointing out.

    July 31st, 2007 | #

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